vasiletina
11-11-2006, 01:02
Ps heres a fun one I sent to the editor of the irish times...
Note: forwarded message attached.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.comDear Editor,
I welcome your comments today under the heading 'Migrant Workers'.
The forwarded mail here was sent to Minister Martin on the 05th of October. It was dispatched to the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice, the leaders of both of the main opposition parties and Mairead McGguinness ( MEP ). Only as a result of me contacting the Department of Trade Enterprise and Employment ( DETE ) on 'two' seperate ocassions by telephone did I manage to get an acknowledgement in writing from them. None of the other politicans noted receipt of the mai.
As a matter of coincidence, I firstly contacted the DETE yesterday morning. When I spoke to Mr. David Owens from the Ministers office post the 05th of October, I was told that he would personally hand the mail to the Minister the following Tuesday, when he returns from Cork. Yesterday morning I was told by Geraldine from the same office that my mail was sent to 'advisors' and that an update on same would be made know to me yesterday afternoon by mail. No such mail was received.
It gets beter.
I then decided to telephone Mr. Aherns department in Leinster House. The initial reply was that the mail sent could not be found. I then checked my mail and noticed it was sent to Amy. When I advised
this to the person I spoke to, I was told ' ah yes, we have a Amy here. I'll get her to ring you later'. No telephone call was received.
And theres more.
Contact as then made with the Justice department. They did eventualy find it and said they would advise me the status by return. No update was received by return yesterday.
And.
On Sky News yesterday afernoon, it was announced that Britain where imposing restrictions on these peoples. Within the hour the Irish government cited their similar stance. Very cosy indeed that both are singing from the same hymn sheet that very afternoon. I think its more a case that the tail in Westminister is waging the dog in Dublin. I guess the morale of the story is that if one wants an update on government policy tune in to Sky news.
I can only imagine the content of one-line reply I will get from the DETE on this matter now that the deal is done. I guess it was naive of me to think that the Minister would actually address each point I raised. Despite this announcement by London we find that peoples from Bulgaria and Rromania under EU law can travel and live here in Ireland. Should they have the wherewithal to establish themselves as an employer, they can work here. Why was this loophole not blocked before the announcement? The government had until the 31st of December. Obviously Westminister did not care about that minor issue.
What the government has done is maybe encourage further these second class Europeans from January 1 to enter into the black economy. Where are the financial penalties for employers engaged in such activity. This was the opportunity to annoce same by Minister Martin provided proper time and thought was given to this matter. Yesterdays annoucement was obviously a knee-jerk reaction to Westminister. Typically Irish, lets run with what we have anyway.
One has a better chance of winning Euromillions than obtaining a work permit here. Its a smokescreen to suggest that giving them priority over non European Union applicants will help. If the Ibec suggestion of granting a permit, once a job was sourced, had been applied then this would have gone a long way towards preventing further exploitation.
in addition, its a pity the Minister did not answer the questions he was asked by Bryan Dobson on RTE Six One News yesterday, particularly when it came to the evidence of the numbers that will travel here.?
Regards
Anthony Malone
0876737873
Ps I also telephoned Mr. Aherns office in Drumcondra yesterday morning. The answering machine said to leave a message and they would return my call. Guess what, nothing to date.
The decision made I accept but belive it is flawed. It can be changed even now along the lines what Ibec suggests; however, from the lack of response from all mentioned in this mail concerning my initial note of the 05th of October, which beggers belief, the chances of them even considering looking a the Permit Issue as suggested is utopia.
I'm now ringing cross-channel enquiries for Westministers telephone number to see what they want for us.
E&OE
Note: forwarded message attached.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Received: from [83.70.225.201] by web27912.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 10:27:27 BST
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 10:27:27 +0100 (BST)
From: tony malone <afmalone@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bulgarian / Romanian Accession January 1,2007.
To: david_owens@entemp.ie
In-Reply-To: <20061004230825.51741.qmail@web27909.mail.ukl.yahoo .com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-841766388-1160040447=:89255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Length: 6875
TO DEPARTMENT OF ENTERPRISE TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT
Dear David
I refer to our telephone conversation last Tuesday, and as sought I will attempt to communicate my thoughts in this mail.
I suppose firstly I must remind you the reason why I telephoned your department. On the radio this week comments from the Small Firms Association ( SFA ) and the ESRI concerning citizens from these two countries been given full access to the labour market here where made. To say the least I was disappointed to hear their respective beliefs or opinions so soon after the EU agreed to allow them to join as full members. The spokesperson for the SFA went further implying that the 'quality' of workers that would travel here would not be like previous immigrants and in fact opening our employment sector fully might create unemployment here.
The ESRI wants the system of work permits maintained. This will ensure the 'right' people will come here etc i.e. high standard professionals. The reality is that to date applying this system is a back-handed way of refusing applicants due to its numerous requirements/timescale. Such bias and somewhat misleading comments emanating from these bodies cited on the national airwaves was unfortunate to say the least. In a court of law the defendant is believed to be innocent until proven otherwise! The accession date for these countries is not until January 2007 and already the so-called experts are pre-judging the outcome of what is likely to happen. Why dont they advocate and wait and review system of the numbers coming instead of creating this hysteria.
When Spain joined the EU, similar comments where made telling the Irish public that there will be hundreds of thousands of people coming here taking our jobs. The mass immigration never materilaised. The difference between then and now is that this country has had, and continues to enjoy the benefits of an economic boom for some considerable period of time now. The previous Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment Ms. Harney is on recent record citing that Ireland needs 50,000 immigrants per year for the next five years to sustain this economy. This is not the case for other european countries, like Britain; however, already we would appear to be following the line advocated in the British press by our neighbour ( comments attributed to the Minister for Justice ). This might be right for Britain, but it is a error of judgement for us. Why, you might say. Then please consider carefully the following;
1. Irish people dont fully know/understand the culture of these peoples. Unfortunately, when referred to in newspapers and if accompanied by a photograph, the sterotype gypsie is used like in last Sundays Irish Mail when the article in question related to monies sent back to their homes. In Romania the gypsie community makes up a very small percentage of the total population ( Approx. 1% of 22 million ). Ireland expericenced during the 1990's poor behaviour from some of these gypsies whom in the main came here not to work. They collected social welfare payments ( the system has now been charged to prevent this thankfully ) and begged in the streets but did not look for work when same was plentiful. Despite such experiences the entire communities of both countries must not be ostracised as a result. In fact there is a young well educated number of people living in these countries fluent in languages and I.T. complient. The negative image particularly of Romanians in some sections of our press is intentional when the reality is so different. Ireland somewhat encouraged these gypsies to come here in the mid 1990's since we where not prepared for the influx of immigration. Peoples whom travel from these countries now or in the future will want to work since there is no easy money for them to claim. This can only be a good thing for Ireland since it will increase taxes from future workers and result with the reduced numbers working in the black economy. Its a win win situation for the state and it will have an immediate impact. This point alone is reason for Ireland to consider opening its doors on January 1, since having people working in the black economy only leads to further exploitation. We should consider giving such peoples caught in such a situation a chance to regularise their status.
2. I now want to try and explain why I think the numbers whom will travel here looking for working will be nominal. Firstly, for these peoples to travel here is very expensive and far. The climate conditions and food here in the main is different from the Balkans and they find it difficult to becomes familiar with same. In fact out of a population of some 29 millions there would be less than 30,000 peoples from these countries here presently. Please remember those that want to come here are already here, and post January 1 the numbers travelling will not be anything like the Polish immigrants experience for the reasons already outlined. These points where expressed by both the Romanian and Bulgarian Prime Ministers prior to it being communicated by the EU that their countries will be joining in January 2007. Both men hoped that full freedom of movement concerning employment would be grated to their citizens; otherwise a two-tier society within the EU member states will arise. Surely this is not what enlargement is about? It is well know that peoples from these countries travel to Italy and Spain more so than here, and the duration of their travel is only for a few months to return then with savings for their families back home. Such practise would not be practical and too costly from Ireland.
I would ask the minister / government to consider further research. Maybe visit both Sofia and Bucharest in an offical capacity, talk to the Irish embassies/consulars there, and maybe even speak to the prime ministers directly since the decision facing us is so important not only for both countries but also to Ireland. This ultimately might lead to improved economic benefits for all concerned in the future.
3. Ireland out of all countries in Europe have had its share of emigration to the USA and Britian in particular. Somewhat like the Romanian gypsies did here, the Irish gypsie that travelled to Britain in the fifties/sixties at that time gave the true working Irish man a bad image. Did that stop Britain employing Irish again? No it did not. In fact the Irish mans contribution to Britain's development post the war is well documented and we are proud of it to this very day. The thousands that travelled to USA in the eighties to work is well know and maybe some day soon, their lives will be regularised if and when the US authories grant them the right to stay after all these years. The only crime these Irish people commited was that they wanted to work at a time of high unemployment in this country.The implcations for these people is almost imaginable when they can not travel freely between the US and here for whatever reason. Do we want this for the peoples that travel in 2007 from these two european countries? Do they deserve it.
4. By all means I would encourage that we have in place a timescale to review things and see if the open door policy needs to be revisited say 6 months after January 1! But to make wide ranging assumptions on this matter is immoral and wrong in my opinion when all these people will be doing is wanting to improve their own standard of living which is what enlagement is about. This is what the Irish did during our recent past history.What goes around comes around is so true. In some ways the experiences of the Irish in recent history is almost a total image for these peoples. This time around the question is when the factors persist within the european member states, will they receive the support they deserve?
I believe the economic and politcal factors are in place to welcome these people without preconditions with a review date agreed at some point in time in the near future post accession. This can also only assist the integration of those immigrants already here. We dont want to make the same mistakes that France and Britian has made and if they have equal rights to work then this will go a long way to achieve this goal. Econmic benefits where highlighted earlier in terms of movement from the black economy.
5. Provisions to heavily penalise employers whom hire workers here illegally needs to be introduced. We should not be penalising the worker. Once the word goes out amongst employers that it will not pay to hire illegal workers, then the ripple effect will be of benefit to all. This approach needs to seriously considered if we are to enhance the working conditions and benefits for all ( including the state ). We all remember the Gama experience, but there are plenty of more within other sectors of industry. Inspectors doing the rounds of restaurants/bars would demonstrate my point. Instead of penalising the worker, impose severe financial penalties on the employer. This will then go a long way to resolving the illegal worker situation. Remember its the employer exploiting the worker which is happening presently. The proposed law to be enacted does not go far enough in my opinion in this regard. Look how successful Mr. Martin was with the smoking ban. Why? It was the financial penalties which focused the minds of bar owners.
Finally, during the Taoiseach's written questions last Tuesday the question of full access to work here for these people's was raised.I believe Mr. Ahern is adopting a wait and see what other countries do. I know opening things up for them here if Britain does not would cause some difficulties for Britain and due to the freedom of movement between these islands. That is not a just reason though to refuse these peoples the full right to work in this juridiction. Such problems it might cause can be overcome. Where there's a will there's a way.
I would ask the minister and the government to be brave, and send out a message to our european partners that when the econmic factors are right, Ireland will not be found wanting and let all know that enlargement and all its implications are taken on board fully here ( like at the last round of accession when 10 countries joined, which is not the case now with only 2 joining ). Be fair while we can, since thats why we joined the EEC in the mid 1970's to achieve justice and improve our citizens standard of living. Its now our turn to give some more back to nations not as well off as us, and not turn our back on them.
I would ask the contents of this mail be taken on board when a decision is being made concerning this matter, and I do hope that Ireland ( like Britain and Sweeden where the last time around ) fully openes it doors to these peoples. Immigration has been good for Ireland at the end of the day so if we are fair and balanced, as outlined above, I believe we will make the correct decision and continue to proper into the future.
Thanks for taking the time to read this mail and I look forward to hearing from you soon
Regards,
Anthony
Mobile 087-6737873
E&OE
the above mail was sent to Mr. David Owens, Secretary to Minister Martin.
Note: forwarded message attached.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.comDear Editor,
I welcome your comments today under the heading 'Migrant Workers'.
The forwarded mail here was sent to Minister Martin on the 05th of October. It was dispatched to the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice, the leaders of both of the main opposition parties and Mairead McGguinness ( MEP ). Only as a result of me contacting the Department of Trade Enterprise and Employment ( DETE ) on 'two' seperate ocassions by telephone did I manage to get an acknowledgement in writing from them. None of the other politicans noted receipt of the mai.
As a matter of coincidence, I firstly contacted the DETE yesterday morning. When I spoke to Mr. David Owens from the Ministers office post the 05th of October, I was told that he would personally hand the mail to the Minister the following Tuesday, when he returns from Cork. Yesterday morning I was told by Geraldine from the same office that my mail was sent to 'advisors' and that an update on same would be made know to me yesterday afternoon by mail. No such mail was received.
It gets beter.
I then decided to telephone Mr. Aherns department in Leinster House. The initial reply was that the mail sent could not be found. I then checked my mail and noticed it was sent to Amy. When I advised
this to the person I spoke to, I was told ' ah yes, we have a Amy here. I'll get her to ring you later'. No telephone call was received.
And theres more.
Contact as then made with the Justice department. They did eventualy find it and said they would advise me the status by return. No update was received by return yesterday.
And.
On Sky News yesterday afernoon, it was announced that Britain where imposing restrictions on these peoples. Within the hour the Irish government cited their similar stance. Very cosy indeed that both are singing from the same hymn sheet that very afternoon. I think its more a case that the tail in Westminister is waging the dog in Dublin. I guess the morale of the story is that if one wants an update on government policy tune in to Sky news.
I can only imagine the content of one-line reply I will get from the DETE on this matter now that the deal is done. I guess it was naive of me to think that the Minister would actually address each point I raised. Despite this announcement by London we find that peoples from Bulgaria and Rromania under EU law can travel and live here in Ireland. Should they have the wherewithal to establish themselves as an employer, they can work here. Why was this loophole not blocked before the announcement? The government had until the 31st of December. Obviously Westminister did not care about that minor issue.
What the government has done is maybe encourage further these second class Europeans from January 1 to enter into the black economy. Where are the financial penalties for employers engaged in such activity. This was the opportunity to annoce same by Minister Martin provided proper time and thought was given to this matter. Yesterdays annoucement was obviously a knee-jerk reaction to Westminister. Typically Irish, lets run with what we have anyway.
One has a better chance of winning Euromillions than obtaining a work permit here. Its a smokescreen to suggest that giving them priority over non European Union applicants will help. If the Ibec suggestion of granting a permit, once a job was sourced, had been applied then this would have gone a long way towards preventing further exploitation.
in addition, its a pity the Minister did not answer the questions he was asked by Bryan Dobson on RTE Six One News yesterday, particularly when it came to the evidence of the numbers that will travel here.?
Regards
Anthony Malone
0876737873
Ps I also telephoned Mr. Aherns office in Drumcondra yesterday morning. The answering machine said to leave a message and they would return my call. Guess what, nothing to date.
The decision made I accept but belive it is flawed. It can be changed even now along the lines what Ibec suggests; however, from the lack of response from all mentioned in this mail concerning my initial note of the 05th of October, which beggers belief, the chances of them even considering looking a the Permit Issue as suggested is utopia.
I'm now ringing cross-channel enquiries for Westministers telephone number to see what they want for us.
E&OE
Note: forwarded message attached.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Received: from [83.70.225.201] by web27912.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 10:27:27 BST
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 10:27:27 +0100 (BST)
From: tony malone <afmalone@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bulgarian / Romanian Accession January 1,2007.
To: david_owens@entemp.ie
In-Reply-To: <20061004230825.51741.qmail@web27909.mail.ukl.yahoo .com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-841766388-1160040447=:89255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Length: 6875
TO DEPARTMENT OF ENTERPRISE TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT
Dear David
I refer to our telephone conversation last Tuesday, and as sought I will attempt to communicate my thoughts in this mail.
I suppose firstly I must remind you the reason why I telephoned your department. On the radio this week comments from the Small Firms Association ( SFA ) and the ESRI concerning citizens from these two countries been given full access to the labour market here where made. To say the least I was disappointed to hear their respective beliefs or opinions so soon after the EU agreed to allow them to join as full members. The spokesperson for the SFA went further implying that the 'quality' of workers that would travel here would not be like previous immigrants and in fact opening our employment sector fully might create unemployment here.
The ESRI wants the system of work permits maintained. This will ensure the 'right' people will come here etc i.e. high standard professionals. The reality is that to date applying this system is a back-handed way of refusing applicants due to its numerous requirements/timescale. Such bias and somewhat misleading comments emanating from these bodies cited on the national airwaves was unfortunate to say the least. In a court of law the defendant is believed to be innocent until proven otherwise! The accession date for these countries is not until January 2007 and already the so-called experts are pre-judging the outcome of what is likely to happen. Why dont they advocate and wait and review system of the numbers coming instead of creating this hysteria.
When Spain joined the EU, similar comments where made telling the Irish public that there will be hundreds of thousands of people coming here taking our jobs. The mass immigration never materilaised. The difference between then and now is that this country has had, and continues to enjoy the benefits of an economic boom for some considerable period of time now. The previous Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment Ms. Harney is on recent record citing that Ireland needs 50,000 immigrants per year for the next five years to sustain this economy. This is not the case for other european countries, like Britain; however, already we would appear to be following the line advocated in the British press by our neighbour ( comments attributed to the Minister for Justice ). This might be right for Britain, but it is a error of judgement for us. Why, you might say. Then please consider carefully the following;
1. Irish people dont fully know/understand the culture of these peoples. Unfortunately, when referred to in newspapers and if accompanied by a photograph, the sterotype gypsie is used like in last Sundays Irish Mail when the article in question related to monies sent back to their homes. In Romania the gypsie community makes up a very small percentage of the total population ( Approx. 1% of 22 million ). Ireland expericenced during the 1990's poor behaviour from some of these gypsies whom in the main came here not to work. They collected social welfare payments ( the system has now been charged to prevent this thankfully ) and begged in the streets but did not look for work when same was plentiful. Despite such experiences the entire communities of both countries must not be ostracised as a result. In fact there is a young well educated number of people living in these countries fluent in languages and I.T. complient. The negative image particularly of Romanians in some sections of our press is intentional when the reality is so different. Ireland somewhat encouraged these gypsies to come here in the mid 1990's since we where not prepared for the influx of immigration. Peoples whom travel from these countries now or in the future will want to work since there is no easy money for them to claim. This can only be a good thing for Ireland since it will increase taxes from future workers and result with the reduced numbers working in the black economy. Its a win win situation for the state and it will have an immediate impact. This point alone is reason for Ireland to consider opening its doors on January 1, since having people working in the black economy only leads to further exploitation. We should consider giving such peoples caught in such a situation a chance to regularise their status.
2. I now want to try and explain why I think the numbers whom will travel here looking for working will be nominal. Firstly, for these peoples to travel here is very expensive and far. The climate conditions and food here in the main is different from the Balkans and they find it difficult to becomes familiar with same. In fact out of a population of some 29 millions there would be less than 30,000 peoples from these countries here presently. Please remember those that want to come here are already here, and post January 1 the numbers travelling will not be anything like the Polish immigrants experience for the reasons already outlined. These points where expressed by both the Romanian and Bulgarian Prime Ministers prior to it being communicated by the EU that their countries will be joining in January 2007. Both men hoped that full freedom of movement concerning employment would be grated to their citizens; otherwise a two-tier society within the EU member states will arise. Surely this is not what enlargement is about? It is well know that peoples from these countries travel to Italy and Spain more so than here, and the duration of their travel is only for a few months to return then with savings for their families back home. Such practise would not be practical and too costly from Ireland.
I would ask the minister / government to consider further research. Maybe visit both Sofia and Bucharest in an offical capacity, talk to the Irish embassies/consulars there, and maybe even speak to the prime ministers directly since the decision facing us is so important not only for both countries but also to Ireland. This ultimately might lead to improved economic benefits for all concerned in the future.
3. Ireland out of all countries in Europe have had its share of emigration to the USA and Britian in particular. Somewhat like the Romanian gypsies did here, the Irish gypsie that travelled to Britain in the fifties/sixties at that time gave the true working Irish man a bad image. Did that stop Britain employing Irish again? No it did not. In fact the Irish mans contribution to Britain's development post the war is well documented and we are proud of it to this very day. The thousands that travelled to USA in the eighties to work is well know and maybe some day soon, their lives will be regularised if and when the US authories grant them the right to stay after all these years. The only crime these Irish people commited was that they wanted to work at a time of high unemployment in this country.The implcations for these people is almost imaginable when they can not travel freely between the US and here for whatever reason. Do we want this for the peoples that travel in 2007 from these two european countries? Do they deserve it.
4. By all means I would encourage that we have in place a timescale to review things and see if the open door policy needs to be revisited say 6 months after January 1! But to make wide ranging assumptions on this matter is immoral and wrong in my opinion when all these people will be doing is wanting to improve their own standard of living which is what enlagement is about. This is what the Irish did during our recent past history.What goes around comes around is so true. In some ways the experiences of the Irish in recent history is almost a total image for these peoples. This time around the question is when the factors persist within the european member states, will they receive the support they deserve?
I believe the economic and politcal factors are in place to welcome these people without preconditions with a review date agreed at some point in time in the near future post accession. This can also only assist the integration of those immigrants already here. We dont want to make the same mistakes that France and Britian has made and if they have equal rights to work then this will go a long way to achieve this goal. Econmic benefits where highlighted earlier in terms of movement from the black economy.
5. Provisions to heavily penalise employers whom hire workers here illegally needs to be introduced. We should not be penalising the worker. Once the word goes out amongst employers that it will not pay to hire illegal workers, then the ripple effect will be of benefit to all. This approach needs to seriously considered if we are to enhance the working conditions and benefits for all ( including the state ). We all remember the Gama experience, but there are plenty of more within other sectors of industry. Inspectors doing the rounds of restaurants/bars would demonstrate my point. Instead of penalising the worker, impose severe financial penalties on the employer. This will then go a long way to resolving the illegal worker situation. Remember its the employer exploiting the worker which is happening presently. The proposed law to be enacted does not go far enough in my opinion in this regard. Look how successful Mr. Martin was with the smoking ban. Why? It was the financial penalties which focused the minds of bar owners.
Finally, during the Taoiseach's written questions last Tuesday the question of full access to work here for these people's was raised.I believe Mr. Ahern is adopting a wait and see what other countries do. I know opening things up for them here if Britain does not would cause some difficulties for Britain and due to the freedom of movement between these islands. That is not a just reason though to refuse these peoples the full right to work in this juridiction. Such problems it might cause can be overcome. Where there's a will there's a way.
I would ask the minister and the government to be brave, and send out a message to our european partners that when the econmic factors are right, Ireland will not be found wanting and let all know that enlargement and all its implications are taken on board fully here ( like at the last round of accession when 10 countries joined, which is not the case now with only 2 joining ). Be fair while we can, since thats why we joined the EEC in the mid 1970's to achieve justice and improve our citizens standard of living. Its now our turn to give some more back to nations not as well off as us, and not turn our back on them.
I would ask the contents of this mail be taken on board when a decision is being made concerning this matter, and I do hope that Ireland ( like Britain and Sweeden where the last time around ) fully openes it doors to these peoples. Immigration has been good for Ireland at the end of the day so if we are fair and balanced, as outlined above, I believe we will make the correct decision and continue to proper into the future.
Thanks for taking the time to read this mail and I look forward to hearing from you soon
Regards,
Anthony
Mobile 087-6737873
E&OE
the above mail was sent to Mr. David Owens, Secretary to Minister Martin.